Talk of the Triangle

Scarlett 2i2 USB-1: [00:00:00] This episode brought to you by Neighbor Health Center. Okay. So Adam, you know I have goats at home.

Adam: No, I didn't know you. What, what, how I've never talked about my goats.

No, but that's amazing. 'cause you know, I grew up we raised goats when I was a kid. Did you really? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. In Oh, my mother. I did not, my mother raised goats and we had goats when I was a kid. I love goats.

Melissa: I love goats. Did you raise them for

Adam: They were milking goats.

Okay. And dairy goats. She had like two or three and we, you know, we had the occasional kid. But,

Melissa: Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Our goats are for absolutely, they're good for nothing. How many goats do you have? We have two. They're both rescue goats. In fact, now we have nicknamed our male goat, the world's most expensive goat, because he got sick over Christmas.

And he ended up at NC State Vet Hospital. And God bless their souls over there because they're amazing. However, there goes my Christmas budget. Aw, well, but now [00:01:00] we, we adore our goats. They're just amazing pets. They're just like outdoor dogs. They are.

Adam: They are with horns and so tremendously social and fun.

And they

Melissa: love to be with you and love to play. Yes. They just wanna be with us all the time. Yeah. One of our goats is a three-legged goat, and you would never know it because she's the fastest goat I've ever seen in my life. So this is, this is

Adam: not the world's most expensive

Melissa: goat. She's the world's most fastest three-legged goat.

We, we should put her in a competition of three, our race of three-legged goats. Yes. A three legged goat competition.

Guest: I think the nationals are coming up for that. Are

Melissa: they? Are they Joe? Okay, we'll look into that after the podcast. Like a goat competition. I

Guest: love goat videos. With the, the scream. Oh yes. They're so animated. hilarious animals. They are so funny. I feel like every day I go outside to, to feed them and I'm, I'm laughing at some point.

Melissa: Yeah. They're not [00:02:00] meaning to be funny. No, but that makes it funnier. No, they're just, they're just, they have so much personality in their little faces. Even though I feel like their eyes are a little demonic. Goat eyes are weird with the little slips, you know, I, I.

Adam: I? No,

Melissa: you don't agree? I just think they're great.

Okay. I'm gonna send you the picture of my goat eyes, just the eye, just the pupil, and you can tell me if you agree. So if you get a random text from me and it's just an eyeball,

Adam: but that's probably, if I took a picture of your eyeball and zoomed right in, I got a darn

Guest: good looking

Adam: eyeball. There might be some demonic kind of characteristics.

We don't know. I mean, maybe. You're

Melissa: leading the witness on that one. Sorry. Yeah, I am. I am. A little bit. So, okay.

Adam: So how, how are we,

Melissa: why are we talking about goats? We're talking about goats because today we're gonna be talking about horses. Are you? Well, that, oh, that makes perfect sense. Have you been around horses in your life?

So let's transition. So,

Adam: whoa. Bigger larger

Melissa: animals. Larger, yes, yes, yes. Much more intimidating. I've [00:03:00] never really, I love looking at horses from afar. Yeah. But they, they're quite intimidating. Well,

Adam: I, I grew up in the country in northern California and did a little bit of like, you know, somebody had a horse, you got on the back and you rode around a little bit.

Nothing major. My sister got seriously into riding when she was pretty young and became a very accomplished dressage rider. And interestingly enough, it's funny that we're doing this and I hope she listens at some point because she you know, she went off to, you know, high school and college and was barely on a horse for like.

The last 30 years and she's just started riding again, and she's just absolutely loving it. So she's back to riding which is really cool. But she Nice. She was, she was the rider in our family. I,

Melissa: I was never the rider. Okay. Yeah. I'm more of the sit back from afar and, and admire then, so, so my question of the day was, do you like horses?

Yay or nay? Yeah. All right. We're gonna stop horsing around because [00:04:00] we've got a great topic today. Okay. We are gonna be diving more into a story that was in our January February issue of Triangle Family about local horse therapy programs. Some sources say that equine therapy has been around since the time of ancient Greeks.

That's one thing I did not know. Okay. But but the popularity and success of the programs have become widely lauded in recent decades.

Equine assisted therapy are programs where professionals guide clients through activities with horses. There are different kinds of programs, so we'll talk about all those today. And they have different goals for the people involved. Some programs are part of mental health treatment. In other cases, clients ride horses as part of physical therapy or occupational therapy regimen.

Today we have the honor of speaking with Amanda Graham, the founder of Unbridled Way Forward in Rougemont, North Carolina. Amanda is a licensed. Clinical mental health counselor and clients seek out her [00:05:00] services to deal with something in their lives, a relationship issue, anxiety, depression, or grief.

Those who just don't know how to move forward. I. Thank you for being with us today,

Guest: Amanda. Thank you. I can tell I'm in good company. We've started with goats. Goats, yeah. Goats and laughs. Are you a goat

Adam: lover too? I mean, I know we're gonna talk about horses today. Yeah. But let's, let's get back to goats.

Yeah. Yeah.

Guest: Forget the horses. It's funny. I'll just. Say very quickly. We, as we were talking beforehand we found out that part of your goat love Melissa, was founded in a place not far from where my farm is in Rougemont.

Melissa: Yes. And we cannot think of [00:06:00] the name of this place. We cannot. So I'm gonna, maybe I'll get on my phone and be Googling while you're talking.

Okay. So if I do that, let's not be rude. Let's

Guest: Oh, thank you. Yeah. I'm happy to be here. I really am. I'm excited about this conversation.

Melissa: Well, tell us a little bit about yourself. I'm curious about your background and how you got involved with horses and horse therapy. Hmm.

Guest: Well it's interesting as I was listening, Adam, to you talk about your sister who found horses when she was younger, and it sounds like she was riding dressage, so she was very seriously training.

I had a similar story except I can't say that I, I was drive riding dressage at that time, but I really connected with horses very young as a young child. And every morning I would wake up. I grew up in Columbia, South Carolina. I would wake up and I would look out my window in my bedroom and I would say, please, Lord, let there be a horse out there.

I had this sort of crazy magical thinking that I wanted to have a horse of my own in [00:07:00] the backyard, and of course they never appeared, but I carried that hope with me and did get to ride. But as I became an adult I had a period of my life where I was looking for. Connection. I was looking for something to bring me more joy as it did when I was a youngster, and I found horses again later in life.

Similar to what you were saying about your sister. Yeah. Came back to the love. Yeah. Is this

Melissa: after you were already a, a, a therapist?

Guest: No, I actually became a therapist later in life. Okay. But I found, I found horses before that. And they were part of the transition just because they really connected me again with this passion for connecting with others, helping others.

And I felt like animals were a good way to do that. Mm-Hmm. At the time I was riding horses and that was a period at which I decided to go back and become a counselor, become a therapist. So I became a therapist and. Completed my training and very quickly after I was licensed, moved to Colorado, [00:08:00] and that was in 2003, and that was when I discovered this whole idea of being able to work with horses to help people through therapy.

To combine

Melissa: your two

Guest: loves. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Exactly.

Melissa: Okay, so one question I have is why horses? Why not goats or cats or dogs, cats. See, Adam and Adam and I are big cat lovers. Yes, yes. We have bonded over our, our, our cat obsession. A respective, respective felines. Yes. And I think the difference is, and, and, and what I've read about horse therapy and, and cat therapy is that with cat therapy, Adam, we are talking to our cats and they don't give a crap.

You see what I'm saying? I, I do, I do horses. Explain to me, Amanda, that horses are more of a, a feeling type of animal. Is that what?

Guest: Well, you're very close. They are very intuitive. Mm-Hmm. And they're very mindful. Okay. I mean, I'm not saying cats can't be [00:09:00] mindful. Sure they are. Mine

Melissa: are. I don't know if Adams are, but mine are not very.

I'm sure yours are. Yes.

Adam: I think they're mindful. And then choose not to care. Yes.

Guest: So there's a choice there. There's a, there's a choice. Yes. No, I think there's a lot of benefit from cats, dogs, all sorts of animals. Goats being involved in people's, therapeutic journey. So a lot of things can be therapeutic or helpful or healing.

Yeah. And not necessarily be therapy. Right. So I mean, I think about the relationships we have with our pets that certainly is therapeutic and healing, but it's not necessarily therapy, if that makes sense. It does, but horses are different. And I think one of the biggest ways that they're different is that they are prey animals.

You know, our cats, our dogs, and I'm thinking, I don't know about goats. Goats are probably prey animals too. Definitely prey animals. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. But the beauty of horses is because they are prey animals. They have this hypersensitivity to reading their external environment. Mm. I mean, that's how they have survived.

Okay. Yeah. So they, it's like they are, [00:10:00] when you talk about being a feeling animal, they are very much in their bodies. They are very much in their senses because that's how they've survived. Mm-Hmm. If they weren't paying attention, right, they were gonna get eaten by something thousands and thousands of years ago.

So this is how they've developed and that same sensitivity and ability to read their external environment. So when we come into the pasture with them, we become part of their external environment, so they begin to read the most subtle. Body language that we have, like we don't even know that we're communicating something.

And it's not magical or mystical. It's truly they are able to pick up on the communications we may not be aware of. Mm-Hmm. Okay. And so from that place, just very broadly, it gives us the opportunity to build a relationship and or learn more about ourselves through connecting with horses. And that's one aspect of how it's helpful.

Adam: When you talk to a small animal or you're dealing with a cat or a pet or something, [00:11:00] there's always a dominance. It's, it's inherent Exactly. That you're dominant. Yeah. But when you're standing with a horse, you probably have to put that aside a little bit or really understand whether it's gonna be part of that dynamic or not, because the horse is so big.

Yeah,

Guest: no, that's a great point. Horses. By nature are out of the ordinary, and they are huge. And I think for most of us, it gives us an opportunity to immediately begin to see where and how we respond to things that are unusual and big and scary potentially. Hmm. You know, when we go into our lives and we meet things that are big and scary and unusual and not known, we have certain responses.

Some of those are purely effective, some of them are not so much. We think about trauma, for example. I mean, people have been severely traumatized through their lives and being in contact with things that may be scary have to be titrated very carefully. But it does give us the opportunity to learn about.

How do I respond to [00:12:00] things that I'm afraid of? Mm-Hmm. How do I respond to an unusual situation? And in our work everything that we do is on the ground. So the horses have choices. We have choices. They're not being held by a halter or anything. We may do that sometimes, but it's really important for the horses and the people to have a chance to navigate with their own choices and make decisions about how close or how far they want to be.

Melissa: And it sounds like building trust between the horse and the person and the person and the horse. You know, it goes both ways because you were saying the horse is a prey, so the horse is being super mindful about how the person is acting around them. Therefore, they're having to learn the, to trust the person, but the person is intimidated by the size of the horse.

So they're having to learn how to trust. So it's really building the relationship. Between the horse and the person. Yeah.

Adam: Now you said horses. How many horses do

Guest: you have? I currently have three horses. Okay. And they're kept in a herd. I have two [00:13:00] mares and one gelding.

Adam: So when we say a herd for a non horse person, that just means they, they hang out together.

They hang out together. Do, do any of them get ridden at all or are they non-writing? Well,

Guest: they, one probably could be, but she has her own story about being ridden and being ridden too hard, too early. Her name is Promise, and so part of her story is that she was very compliant and willing, and unfortunately at the age of seven they had worked her too hard in dressage.

And she had difficulty with her hawks. She blew out her hawks and could not compete and could not engage in that world anymore. Wow. So probably could be ridden, but for me right now, I certainly have had riding horses over the years, but right now the herd is primarily just part of the therapy program or the learning program.

Are all

Melissa: three of your horses the rescue like promise is, or do they all come with their own stories and past

Guest: [00:14:00] issues? Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting because rescues essentially. There are so many wonderful rescues out there, and oftentimes I think about that as, as horses or animals being pulled out of a very difficult situation.

Mm-Hmm. You know, promise's story is that she went into a very good situation after that period. She was actually part of a therapeutic riding program because she could be used for that up in Virginia. So she did come to me not so much as a rescue, but as this was the next leg of her retirement journey, if that makes sense.

Sure. Okay. Sure. But each of them does have their own story, and I think that's part of what makes them so interesting is that when we talk about the horses' stories, people often resonate with their own, own stories.

Melissa: I was just about to say

Guest: that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how many people can relate to a horse like promise?

Where she was pushed too hard. Yeah. When she was not able, she wasn't physically capable of doing what she was being asked. Yeah.

Melissa: Physically and emotionally abused. [00:15:00] Yes. Yes.

Adam: So is the horse's story an integral part of the therapy? I mean, is that something you introduced to the, to your patient's kind of from day one, or is that for certain types of patients and in other cases the horse is a blank slate to simply.

You know, reflect and react to what the, what the patient's going through? I mean, I'm

Guest: curious. Yeah. No, I think it's a yes and okay. Both of those are great interventions depending on the person. Part of what we do at Unbridled, and I'm sure with other programs, when I was reading about Five Hearts, for example, how they assess the needs in the, in the article, they assess the needs of the person coming for the therapeutic writing.

We do the same thing is where is this person in their. Journey of growth. Where is there, where is this person feeling stuck? And so we build from there. And sometimes it is a matter of creating sort of a story mindset for them, because sometimes that feels safer to talk with folks about their [00:16:00] own story.

When people come to therapy or when people come to one of our programs, which is more about personal development, they have a story that brought them there. And what we know is that when our stories change, we change. Mm-Hmm. And so we might introduce the, the horse's story if it is appropriate for that person.

Or at times we just invite people to go out into the space and explore what's there, and maybe think about the space as a blank slate. To see what the horses might represent, to see what the trees might represent. Being in nature too can be part of the story. That's why it's so valuable to be outside with horses in a broad open space.

Mm-Hmm.

Melissa: I even find sometimes that being out in nature in complete silence is, is helpful I guess in terms of maybe some people call that meditation. But I just, I think that that is a form of therapy in and of itself. Yeah. To be in silence. Listening to nature [00:17:00] sounds, the birds singing, the, the wind going between the leaves and that itself can help.

The people that you're helping out at Unbridled.

Guest: Yes. And you know, there is, which I'm sure you've heard of forest bathing, which is that, or maybe you haven't That's I haven't, no. Yeah, it's a kind, I don't know if it's called therapy per se, but it's again a healing modality. Mm-Hmm. Where people go into the woods and they're led by a facilitator.

But it is about exactly what you're saying is being out in nature. I think certainly at Unbridled Way forward it nature, the space is very much a character. Mm-Hmm. It's very much part of the healing. And when we offer our herd meditations every month, which is one of the things we offer, we do have a period of like a half an hour of the people as a group going out individually and spending time in silence with the horses.

Mm-Hmm. So they have that opportunity to not only be in nature, but be with the horses in that as well. Okay.

Adam: We're so bombarded these days with so many inputs. We were just talking about social media earlier. Mm-Hmm. [00:18:00] And all this kind of stuff.

It's like just being alone with your thoughts is something people don't even give themselves time for anymore. Yeah. I mean, regardless of their need for therapy, I think we could all use a little more of that.

Guest: Yeah, I agree. Yeah. And people talk about when they come to Unbridled coming out, 'cause we're out in Rougemont, which is just outside of Bahama.

For those who. May know that area is all horse country and it's fairly undeveloped in Northern Durham County. And so just the drive out

Melissa: there, don't tell anybody about it or it's gonna be very developed. I know.

Guest: We can cut that joke. That's right. That's right. The developers are listening. Yes, they are.

They are. But you know, just the drive out there. Mm-Hmm. Is, you know, two lane road scenic, byway. A lot of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just, you know, people talk about just getting in the car and coming and driving and having that time to relax and let go. Sure. As they arrive helps and likewise when they leave to kind of come back into the world.

But I agree with you. I think we've gotten [00:19:00] so far away from nature in so much of our lives. And, and just touching on something else you mentioned, Adam, about mental health or therapy versus other type you mentioned. We all could use it even if we don't need therapy. And I certainly agree. You know, I really view all of us.

I, I view mental health as being on a continuum. And at any given time in our lives, we can move up and down on that continuum. Mm-hmm. Sometimes there may be a need for people to have therapy that's needed for a period of time, and then they come back into a more balanced place. There may be people who don't ever need that, who are able to self-care and take care of themselves in other ways.

But I really see mental health as a continuum of wellness. And that we all have the capability of it. It's just, I think in many, many years ago, there was a stigma and we're still fighting that in mental health. There was a stigma about, well, there are those people who have mental health issues, and then there are the rest of us, right?

Mm-Hmm. That, that's definitely out the window and it certainly is very much the [00:20:00] opposite of how I like to work with people. So with when people come to work with me, maybe on therapy, it turns out really to be more of a personal growth experience and vice versa. People may come for a personal growth experience and they end up getting into some more deep emotional issues.

It's all helpful. Yeah. You know, it does. And the horse doesn't know. Yeah. Yeah. The horse doesn't, the horse just knows you're there. Horse. She does, yeah. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. There's another saying too about those of us who facilitate this work, how important it is that we do our own work. Because when we go into the pasture with the horses, the horse doesn't know who the client is.

Yeah. Interesting. Mm-Hmm. So again, another, I mean, I think that just really reinforces the value of thinking about mental wellness as being a. More of a natural thing. [00:21:00] [00:22:00] So when you talk

Adam: about stigma, Mm-Hmm. I'm just curious if in the realm of therapy. If there's full acceptance for this kind of work amongst your colleagues in more, maybe more traditional forms of therapy, kind of the office [00:23:00] type therapy.

Guest: It's interesting, I think you talked about in the opening, Melissa, about how over the last couple of decades things have changed Mm-Hmm. In terms of acceptance and awareness, and I think I've seen that as well.

Currently many of the people who come out for a herd meditation, for example, which is open to the community, are therapists. You know, they're curious about it. And I belong. Oh, that's great. To different this. That's really neat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I belong to a number of networking groups that, you know, are people curious about different types of therapy, and so I think there is an increasing awareness and validation of it.

In the early days it was very unfamiliar and I think there was sort of a stigma around, well, all you do is go out and pet the horses well. No, but it might look, you know, it could, it could appear that way if you don't know what you're seeing and if you've never attended.

But it is a therapeutic intervention. In the case of equine assisted psychotherapy, it's psychotherapy incorporating horses. The difference is, is that [00:24:00] the team, the horse is very much part of the team and they can insert themselves in the story of the client at the most incredible moments. So it does, I, long story short, I think it has gained more credibility.

Yeah. I think many people are very interested in it, but there are national, many national organizations and trainings, whereas when I started, I think there was only one or two.

Adam: Well, I had love to hear an example of what you just talked about. 'cause that sounds really interesting. I mean, I know. Of the

Melissa: horse getting involved in the session.

Yeah. Is there, so

Adam: can you think of a, a specific instance or specific?

Melissa: Specific without being specific Right. We

Guest: have to be mindful. Yeah. Don't, don't use my name for instance. So

Melissa: when Adam was, use Joe Joe's example. When Joe was there. When Joe was

Guest: there. That's so interesting. Well, a couple things come to mind.

One comes to mind of a person, kind of a young adult, late teenager, early, early adult person that I was working with who was really struggling with self-esteem and self-confidence [00:25:00] because this person had been through a lot of sort of bullying. And had been overweight and had some difficulties physically that they were ridiculed for.

And a lot of this person's story was around that negative belief that I'm not lovable. Mm, that I'm not worthy. I'm not lovable. And that was sort of the story they had adopted because of this bullying and abuse that they had had when they were much younger. And we spent. Several sessions out in the pasture, just talking about history, talking about parents, talking about family of origin, and the horses.

All three of the horses were in different places in the pasture, and every time we came out there after session, after session, the horses would come closer, a little bit closer, a little bit closer, a little bit closer, and at one point, probably seven or eight sessions in, she was talking about. This notion of I'm just not worthy and I'm not worthy of love.[00:26:00]

And at that moment, grace, interesting name, who is one of our horses, walked over to her, looked at her and put her face next to her face and nibbled, not with her teeth, but with her lips, basically gave her a kiss on her cheek. Oh wow. Wow. And. We were both just stunned. That's awesome. I have never seen Grace do that before, since Hmm.

Hmm. I mean, that's a very specific example. Yeah. That's a wonderful story. And certainly powerful. Oh my goodness. Incredibly powerful.

Melissa: I mean, it's just a, and the

Adam: reaction of your client I, I'm sure was Yeah.

Guest: Tears, just tears and tears and, mm-hmm. Of joy. Mm-Hmm, sure. And of just that this horse. Would come over and offer that to her.

Mm-Hmm. In that moment of vulnerability. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Just touched her and touched me too. Oh,

Melissa: absolutely. I can imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Grace got some extra carrots that night.[00:27:00]

Guest: Oh, it's always sad. Yes.

Melissa: Little bribery. Well, so it sounds to me like, um. It's, it's really a compliment to traditional, and I use that in quotes. Mm-hmm. Therapy. So you're, you're really out there speaking to your clients and, and patients as you would, if you were sitting, looking at each other in a, in a small room, you know, with the proverbial couch, right?

Instead you're outside, freely walking around and horses are around and they can come up and. Kiss you on the face if they want to. And so it's just a compliment to the traditional setting, which to me sounds way more welcoming and I would be more open to talking. I. Versus just sitting and, and looking straight at you in the face, you know?

Yeah. Which is also intimidating. We were talking about being intimidating by horses. I find it incredibly intimidating to just sit and, I mean, I'm like wiping my hands [00:28:00] getting sweaty palms, thinking about having to sit and talk about feelings, you know? I'd much rather walk around a, a barnyard talking.

Well, yeah. It's

Adam: funny about horses too. I mean, I, I've noticed, I've been with people over the years and, you know, you'll see a horse in a field. Next to a fence. And my inclination is always to write, walk right up to the fence. Mm-Hmm. And often is not. The horse will come over to say hello. And I've been with people who are very timid about that.

And the horse is equally timid. Like the horse isn't asking for that attention, you know? And Mm-Hmm. There's an interesting kind of thing that happens there. Yeah. That, you know, I'm, I'm. I like your term. I think you said equine assisted. Mm-Hmm. So I think that's an important component here. 'cause you're, it's not like you're asking the horse to do the therapy.

Right. Right. I mean this is, you know, the horse might not involve themselves at all and that would be okay too. They're just there.

Guest: Yeah. And we call that holding space. [00:29:00] Equal team member for sure, because they can intersperse themselves whenever they're ready and sometimes they will just be on the outskirts of the activity. Sometimes the client and I will be walking or moving or maybe petting one horse and talking, and the other horses are kind of in the background, but, but we refer to that sometimes as holding space.

So we think of the pasture as being kind of a big container, a safe container, a psychologically safe container for work to happen. And so when we go into that space, it is the horse's space. And when the, even though they are not actively interacting with us, they are essentially emotionally holding space in the same way that as a therapist, I'm not always talking.

And I'm not always, there may be very long periods of silence, but it's a process called holding space, which is essentially being there emotionally without talking. Mm-Hmm. So it's an active role and the horses will sometimes do the same thing. [00:30:00] So equine assisted is a term that has been used in many different settings, and I think that's part sometimes the confusion about what is it?

Like therapeutic writing or is it this or that? Right, right. But in, in our case, I think what we do is it's, it's. We engage something we would call externalizing. Coming back to your point, Melissa, about it, talking about talking with a person as a therapist would. Yes, that is true in some respect. And we also build on that by being able to not look and talk to the person face-to-face, but to focus outward.

And oftentimes I'll be talking with a client and we'll be looking out at the horses just talking or not talking and observing what they're doing as a potential. Prompt for something that may be going on for the client, you know, or maybe that horse is becoming a character in the story. Like you said earlier, Adam, the blank slate, you know, suddenly the horse becomes their mother.

Right. You

Adam: know? Now do you think [00:31:00] there's a, a risk of people coming to the session? Hoping for interaction with the horse. In other words, having some sort of like internal expectation, you know? Mm-Hmm. I hope the horse likes me.

Melissa: I mean, I, yeah. And then the horse has standoffish the whole time. And the, the, I mean, I don't

Adam: know if there's a, there's a role there where, where you run into sort of, and I don't wanna say trouble, but obstacles maybe?

Guest: Yes. You're both right on that. Yeah. That sense of the horse doesn't like me, the horse doesn't want to interact. I can't tell you the number of times that has come up. Yeah. And certainly it's come up with me years ago, you know, going into it with horses, it's like, well, this horse doesn't like me. And that's part of my story.

Right, yeah. Is. Is that as it is with many of us. But I know there are several times where I will just be sweating bullets and if I'm working with Jenny, my equine professional, we're both just over there. Oh my God. I want promise to go move. In fact, we had a, a herd meditation this past Sunday when it was.

30 degrees Wind Chill. 18. We had a great group of people out there, but [00:32:00] when we started Promise and Gator, who's the third horse that I'll talk about in a minute? Were both in the barn 'cause they can come and go and we were outside in the sun. Because we wanted to be out there and Grace was out there.

And so we were all kind of looking up to the barn. Nobody wanted to go to the barn because it was cold. And Jenny and I were just thinking, please, please, please come out of there. Because we wanted the people to have touch hands-on. Yeah. You know, have an interaction. Yeah. And eventually they did. But when we talked with the group afterwards, we said, what were your takeaways and what were your standouts from this experience today?

And two of them talked about the power of just being able to observe what the two horses were doing and this story that she kind of created in her mind about what was happening between the two of them and how relevant it was for her. And so, you know, it's just a reminder over and over again. And that's something, again, I've been doing this 20 years in some fashion, and it's a reminder that.[00:33:00]

A lot of times it's about being patient. It's about holding space and letting at times the horses do the work. Hmm. Right. Yeah. I don't always have to be at the center of it. And that's why Melissa, when you said something about a team or coming in and going, that's exactly right, is we do work as a team, kind of a tag team.

Melissa: So I've read about other horse therapy. Programs in our area, and I'm, I'm happily surprised to see how many we have. We're very blessed to live in an area that has so many different options because it seems to me that each of you have different focuses in some ways. That's what I was getting too.

Yeah. Yeah. And so some of them I've read about and that I wanted to see if you also incorporate into your sessions some of these places will groom the horses clean out the stalls. Really getting their hands dirty in a sense to feel productive and helpful and, and useful around, around the stables and around the [00:34:00] barn. So do you incorporate that type of. Physical labor, I guess I should say, for lack of better

Guest: term.

Yeah, that's a great question. I think there is a lot of value in that, and I think about, I think Corral is one of the programs that does that. Yes. Mm-Hmm. And they do great work. I mean, they do great work with the people they work with and they

Melissa: focus on teenage girls. Yes. Whereas you focus on is it.

Teenagers through adults,

Guest: is that right? It's more adults. More adults, okay. Later teenagers. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Melissa: Older teenagers and young adults. And that is another thing I found with the programs I was reading about is that there's all different age groups. Yes. Mm-Hmm. All different needs desires of what people are trying to get out of the programs as well.

But, and maybe that's why the differences are with the writing versus not writing, the grooming, the cleaning, you know, all that type of thing as well. Yeah. Maybe that's why there's so many

Guest: differences. I think you're right. And I think there's so much benefit from all of that. Especially when you think about the population that Corral works with.

Of teenage girls who are struggling, [00:35:00] giving them opportunities to build resilience, to build confidence, to build re responsibility. Mm-Hmm. All of those things that can happen when you're physically caring for another being,

Adam: I think, too. Mm-Hmm. I mean, we're, we're, we live in this, I mean, I mean, Raleigh's not an overly urban place, but most of us live pretty urban lives.

Mm-Hmm. And that, just that experience of taking yourself out of that, putting yourself in an entirely different environment with different responsibilities and different, different needs. That's in itself has gotta be tremendously helpful. Yeah. I'm sure that kind of is at the core of a lot, particularly these work programs.

I mean, I don't wanna call 'em work programs. That sounds a little harsh, but, but you know, hey, go muck the stall.

Melissa: Okay. The more hands-on programs.

Guest: Yeah. Yeah. I mean there's a lot of value and I think about that in terms of sort of. Therapeutic horsemanship, right. You know, taking care of horses has a lot of therapeutic value, again, depending on what the goals and needs are of the person that's there.

Yeah. So I think that each program is different in that way, but there are so [00:36:00] many ways that the horses can help. Therapeutic riding is designed for very specific, usually occupational therapy, that sort of thing. Very specific physical challenges that people are working with to help them with that. I think in terms of our work we, you asked about being on the ground.

I think we really work with folks. Not that we, we do groom, we, we really follow the client's lead, I guess. We customize our programs to fit. We, we don't have people mucking stalls. I will say that. Not because it's bad, just it's not part of our program, but people normally come out for an hour or an hour and a half session, sometimes a couple of hours if they're doing an immersion.

And it's really focused on building relationship with the horses and working on whatever issue they came with. I mean, that's sort of the broad overview. We do it on the ground because I feel like having a face-to-face, eye to eye relationship with a large creature is different than being on their back.

I think one of you used the term more [00:37:00] dominating. Yeah. Yeah. It's not bad. It's just riding is a different relationship. You're

Melissa: more at an equal. Yes. Stance in relationship versus being in charge if you're on top of the horse. Yeah. Where, whereas I'd say the horse is on charge, is that you can throw your butt off anytime.

Adam: Yes. You sound like you're speaking from experience

Melissa: Well, yes. So, we were talking about our experiences with horses earlier, and I, my family and I went to Arizona over Thanksgiving. Okay. And I had the really great idea that I wanted to ride a horse like Old Western people did. Like, and I'm picturing, oh, we're just gonna trot through a little old Western town.

It was not like that Adam where were you in Arizona? So we, this was in Sedona. Okay. We just spent one day in Sedona. But again, I'm picturing we're riding through flat land. I don't know why I'm thinking Sedonas gonna be flat anywhere 'cause it was not. But we get to this place and [00:38:00] they put me on a horse and I immediate, I look around as I'm on top of the horse and I go, you know what?

I don't think this is gonna. Be exactly what I wanna do today. Can I back out? Because there was nothing flat and it was, it was all up and down rocks. Yeah. And, and I'm calling them cliffs. My husband said there were barely hillside, but that they look like cliffs when you're on top of the course. But there's nothing like realizing that.

You are not in charge,

Guest: you're on top of

Adam: horse. Yeah. Talk about trust though. I mean that's like, I mean, I think, you know, you read accounts or you see things, you know the horse will figure it all out. You just have to kind of let them do their

Melissa: thing. But I realize that about 90% of the way in, yeah. That if I just relax, then the horse has, the horse does this every day.

He knows where he is going. He knows what rock to step on. Just let it go. But the [00:39:00] horse people I think they have fancier names than that. Wrangle Wranglers? Yep. Wranglers. Okay. There you go. Sure. They kept on saying, you're in charge, you're in charge. I'm like, I'm not in charge. Whatcha talking about this horse is like three 30,000, 30,000 pounds.

What are you talking about? But and they were saying, you know, if you just give it a good kick, it'll go that way. And I'm like. No, it won't, it doesn't even feel this kick. So I, I, I really realized that number one, I should not ride horses number two, or you should ride horses more or not, because, or more, I'm just saying, well, may, if you wanna look at it that way or more, that's awesome.

But on, on flatter ground. Yes. But, but to get back to your point about being, you know, face to face and on the same, same playing field for, you know, lack of a better term, but, because either way somebody is feeling like they have more power. Mm-Hmm. If you're sitting on the horse.

Guest: Yeah. That's a be beautiful story.

No, it's not.

[00:40:00] It

Melissa: was a funny story if you were there. Yep. Yeah. And I think all the people around me learned some new curse

Adam: words. Well, I tell you, it's funny about. Riding like that. Like intermittent riding?

Yeah. Yeah. 'cause I think, I know for myself, there's always been this sort of, oh, I want to go riding and I'm, you know, galloping across, you know, and of course it sounds like a great idea. It does. But no one's gonna let you do that if you don't know how to ride. Mm-Hmm. So instead they put you on the back of a horse who's.

Plots along in line with all the other horses. Yes. Yes. And the few times I've done trail rides, I was underwhelmed by the experience because it, I loved, it was nice to be with the horse and everything. And this is a long time ago. I haven't done a trail ride since I was a kid, but, but talk about cliffs. I will tell you, this was in horses.

I think it was, maybe it was horses. This has been a long time. But there's people that go up and down into the Grand Canyon on horseback. Oh yeah. Yeah. So you talk about trusting your animal.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not doing that. I am absolutely there. There's, if I can say one thing with [00:41:00] certainty is that I'm not doing

Adam: that.

There's a drop. There's a drop. Yeah. Don't, don't step left,

Melissa: you know? No. Yeah, yeah. No, no. My, all my anxiety came up. I really in, I exited that needing some equine therapy when I got home.

Guest: You should have called. Yeah. It's not too late. So I, yeah, I mean, all the points you're bringing up about trust and relationship, I mean, that really is the core, at the core of it.

Mm-Hmm. As you say, when we're eye to eye on the same surface, flat facing each other, it gives us a chance to build that trust. And when I think about all the people that I've served over the years. Almost everyone has some issue around a relationship. It's either relationship with themselves or a relationship with their partner, relationship with a family member.

So much of our struggle and so much of our doubt and fear comes in relationships and being able to build a relationship and build that trust with a thousand pound animal with no. Ropes or halters or again, not that those are [00:42:00] bad, this is just a different approach.

Melissa: Yeah. And no verbal communication. Yes.

You know, no two-sided. Verbal communication too. Right. So, so

Guest: we learn a lot about ourselves. Mm-Hmm. And you know, Joseph Campbell says, where we stumble there lies our treasure. And I think when we are in contact with horses in this type of a setting, we find out where we stumble in our lives. And part of the beauty of equine assisted therapy or psychotherapy incorporating horses, however we phrase it, is that what we learn in the pasture and what we learn, mucking stalls and what we learn, doing whatever it is we take into our lives.

And that's where the facilitation comes in. It's, it's not about being a good. A person with a horse. It's really what can I learn about myself and how I can be in the world differently to help me be happier and have better relationships that work better for me. Mm-Hmm.

Adam: Do you see these relationships with the horses growing to a point where.

People then look for other opportunities to [00:43:00] engage with horses outside of therapy. In other words, maybe you were never a rider, but after doing therapy, now you wanna start riding or you wanna start doing?

Melissa: Yeah. Good question. Mm-Hmm?

Guest: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think most of the people that we serve are familiar with horses or drawn to horses.

Sometimes we've seen people who. Didn't really wanna be there because they were scared of horses. And these were usually young teenagers. And the, that pre creates a different situation. But most of the people that we work with really develop an appreciation and respect for horses. And that may look very different when they leave therapy.

They may wanna learn to ride, they may want to go. Volunteer somewhere that's happened before. Mm-Hmm. So I think there is, I think there's a door that opens when people have this nice kind of connection. That's nice. That's beautiful. Yeah. You know, it just expands their horizon.

Adam: Yeah. It's, it's funny. I was, there's a, there's a sort of a guilty pleasure television show that you may be familiar with called Heartland.[00:44:00]

Do you, have you ever watched,

I

Melissa: thought you were gonna say Mr. Ed No, not,

Adam: no. If you haven't watched Heartland, I haven't. Which is like a can You probably are familiar with Heartland. Yeah. It's, it's, is it on now or? Yeah, it's like on Netflix and it's a con, it's a Canadian TV series. It's probably run like 12.

It's gone on forever. Yeah. Characters have completely grown up on it. Okay. And it's, it's very sort of Hallmark channel as to to Little House on the Prairie ish. Yeah. But but. The engagement with the horses continuously throughout the show. 'cause that's, it's, it's all about horses. Mm-hmm. And horse raising horses and training horses and riding horses and raising horse and all, any number of things.

But eventually the lead character starts doing a tremendous amount of work with the horses without getting on them. I. Which is sort of where she's kind of moving towards Mm-Hmm. As a person. And I think it's sort of, it's an interesting, like, plot development in the show. Yeah. And I'm wondering if it reflects like the producers of the show seeing sort of a, you know, wider [00:45:00] interest in that kind of relationship building.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

Guest: Anyway, interesting. Yeah, there's a lot we can learn about ourselves and about the world. Without getting on the back of a horse. Yeah. There's other things that we can learn getting on the back of a horse. See, and

Melissa: I learned I don't ever need to get on the back of a horse again. So, , have you, have you come across any other types of outside of the box thinking therapies that might involve other animals or involve just kind of different ways of, of reaching people?

Hmm.

Guest: I think other than an other animal assisted, like dog assisted therapy dogs and that kind of thing. Yeah. I didn't even think

Melissa: about therapy dogs. I mean, everybody thinks just like we were talking about our cats, that, that their dogs and their other pets are special therapy to them. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. But but certainly dogs that are trained, therapy dogs [00:46:00] would, would be, would be in that.

Adam: Yeah. I mean, I think maybe, maybe the question is. Are horses unique in the way they bring out this sort of quality? Or can you think of other animals, let's say, beyond dogs, let not animals we don't see every day. Mm-Hmm. I mean, I think that's, that's the big, the big part of what you're doing is you're taking people out of their regular environment.

Exactly. Right. So you, you, you know, and, and out to the farm. Mm-Hmm. Out to nature, out to the Mm-Hmm. So are there other types of therapy that are kind of doing something similar maybe, but without horses with something else?

Guest: Well, that's a really good question. I don't know that there is. Yeah. There may be.

I mean, when I think about it, I've seen some. Things about cows, not necessarily therapy, but incorporating them in different activities. Like a retreat. I was looking at North Carolina somewhere that they do work with cows, but it's not really therapy. It's more, it seems more like goat yoga, you know, yoga I was gonna have around yoga, that kind of thing.

Goat yoga. I forgot about goat yoka. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa: Why don't we try that [00:47:00] sometime? I listen. Not with my goats though. No, I'm all for my goats. I'm all for goat. Yoga are not having it. I would love to do yoga. They if, if we sit on the ground, they'll climb on us. Yeah, well that's, yeah. That's goat yoga.

They're way too big. Yeah. We need little goats. Little goats for We should try that sometime. Adam, I think we might have to just for research.

Adam: Research. We'll research them. Yeah. I call everything research. We should have some. We should have our goat yoga people on the show.

Melissa: What? But that means we first have to go try it.

Yeah. And then, then Joe, can we bring goats to the studio? Can we bring, let's bring the microphones out to the studio and bring a bunch of goats out to the farm. Well

Guest: now wait minute, goat, I want you to come out to our place. Well, that would, well you did.

Melissa: Say you're close to a goat farm. That's so we could do all in one.

Guest: All in one day. See, she doesn't want Orderable microphone.

Melissa: She doesn't wanna get near horses. No, no, no. Adam, that's kind what I'm getting outta this. I said I wanna to get near horses. I'm just not gonna ride them anymore. Okay, gotcha. Because I've learned [00:48:00] that they don't want me to ride them, and I don't want to ride them either.

Adam: Now, we talked earlier about how many opportunities for types of therapy involving horses are here in this area. How much of that is because this area is still got a, you know, relatively easy access to, you know. To places like yours. Yeah. I mean, we, we don't have to drive two hours to get to your farm.

Yeah.

Melissa: Like you're not gonna find this in New York City?

Guest: Not in, not in the city. In the city. Maybe Central Park, maybe New Jersey. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe New Jersey. Maybe New Jersey. Yeah. I mean, there are programs all over the country, but I think here, you're right, we have. You know, we still, we have the urban, but we still have access to the country fairly easily.

Yeah. Mm-Hmm. It does. And I think that makes it very, very accessible. And I think people have just, again, over the last 21 years that I've been doing this, I think so many more people have been trained, introduced, and found ways to incorporate horses in ways that help people. That's great. And I think [00:49:00] this type of an area draws people who are.

Interested in other things, you know, who are creative thinkers and that sort of thing.

Adam: Now I'm thinking about the horses themselves. I mean, one of the things that you hear about, particularly when you look at like horse racing as an example, is that horses kind of have a career and then they sort of retire and I think they're usefulness sort of ends at a certain point.

I, is it, is this a nice place for. They, they can go on with the kind of having a purpose.

Melissa: Absolutely. Well, it sounds like that's what promise has essentially

Guest: done. Yeah. Promise has. Mm-Hmm. And yes, I think that oftentimes sport horses and, you know, dressage horses, that kind of thing, they do, they have to stop working.

And this is a way, there've been a number of rescues and also adoptions of, of adopting horses who have completed their careers. And I think there's one by the A-S-P-C-A called the Right Horse Initiative. That [00:50:00] they adopt horses, especially for people who have programs. But I think Gator has a great story.

If I can just briefly tell his story, please do. Yeah. Yeah. So Gator is 34 years old. Mm. He looks fabulous. If you look on the website, you can see his picture on there. But Gator was. Part of a riding program. He taught pe, he taught lessons for years, for years out at a farm out in Rougemont. And his owner his.

Then owner contacted me probably, I guess about eight years ago. She had met Gator when they were closing this riding program and she had adopted him and had been boarding him somewhere else and had boarded him there for over the winter, and she came to check on him. They were taking care of food and water that she wasn't riding him at that time.

And when she came to check him, he was extremely emaciated and dehydrated. So she contacted me and she said, I am looking for a place to move my horse. [00:51:00] Now, you know, I'm really concerned about his wellbeing. So I told her before, she says, do you know anyone? And before I could even open my mouth, I said, well, I'll take him to board.

Mm-Hmm. So that happened and she brought Gator out and Gator thrived on. And it wasn't that the people he was boarding with were, were mean people. It's just he was a special needs horse because he was older and he couldn't eat his food as quickly as the other horses. Mm-Hmm. The other horses would come and eat his food.

Yeah. Yeah. And so he was losing weight and unfortunately the people who were caring for him were not paying as close of attention as it would've been good for them to do. Mm-Hmm. So not bashing anyone, but I think that was what happened Yeah. Was not malicious. No. Right, right. But she brought Gator and he was so happy.

To be cared for and loved on. And at the time I had a fourth horse named named Ben, who had come with me from Colorado. And he and Ben became like, best buds. Mm-Hmm. And the owner was so happy. [00:52:00] She said, Gator has never had a really good friend. He's always been kind of on the fringes because he's been in this lesson program and blah, blah, blah.

So Gator has now blossomed. He is now, he, so Gator Promise and Grace are the three horses that I have, and Gator we call is oftentimes called the Walmart greeter because he's the one who always comes out to meet people. Oh, he loves people. Mm. Oh, and he, you talk about a new lease on life, his life has just blossomed.

Yeah. And I think he's, I really believe, and his owner believes that the reason he's continued to survive so long. Is because he's got this job, you know, and she's, how long do horses normally live? Normally? You know, twenties is good. Oh

Melissa: yeah. So he really is senior. He's senior. He's an elderly

Guest: horse senior.

Yeah. He's okay. Now the oldest horse I've ever known to live was 41. Wow. But that was kind of an, a very unusual circumstance. Yeah. Wow. So 34 is pretty, is fairly old for a horse. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. But he's thriving. Mm-Hmm. And it's just [00:53:00] every day is a blessing with Gator and he's one of the favorites for many, many people who come out there.

Oh, that's really nice. Yeah.

Melissa: I think I'd like Gator. I'd love for you to meet Gator. Mm-Hmm? Yes. No writing. No writing. No. No writing. No writing. No. We could just be friends. Yes. Just be friends on the ground. Friends. Yes. Yes. Well, thank you so much. Can you tell everybody how to find more information about Unbridled Way forward?

Good.

Guest: Good. Good, good. Yes. You can find Unbridled way forward on the website, unbridled way forward.com. We're also on Facebook, we're on Instagram. I think we're on threads now, and you're welcome to take a look and find us there. We'd be happy to talk with you. We're doing a lot of different programming this year and we'd just love to have the opportunity to work with people who wanna work with us, learn about horses, learn about themselves.

Well, we've certainly

Adam: learned a

Guest: lot today. Yes, we have. So this has have been fantastic.

Melissa: Yes, we have. Thank you. Yes, thank you so much. I'm gonna. Head home and feed my goats. There we go. Yeah. Awesome.

Guest: Thank you. Thanks, bye. [00:54:00]